Fahrenheit 9/11

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Sweet_Baboo
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Post by Sweet_Baboo » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:05 pm

I wanted to ask - did anyone see "Control Room" and how they felt about it?

I mean, since we're talking about credibility, truths told from different perspectives, the media, etc...

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Post by Johnny Neat » Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:19 am

Though I dug this flick, Moore's book "Dude where's my Country" did a better job of showing everything that is wrong with this administration, in a clear and direct dry manner. I do want say Will brought up a good point about the way Moore skimmed over the "UnPatriot Act." Moore should have used more dry facts (Like abuse cases and examples of what sneaky things the Act can really be used for) then go for as many witty cheap shots at Baby Bush. Though I and everyone in the audience laughed our heads off while being reminded of how F'd up everything is, Moore should have gone with a more dry direction to the facts of the matter as the book did.

It's funny, Maybe to me at least, that we would be commenting on Politics. Especially for me, Considering I was never that political. But yet, here I and we are, commenting about this stuff on a creative forum. What has the world come to, when we cannot even escape the sickness of the world in a creative gathering :?:
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agent44
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Post by agent44 » Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:09 pm

Well, I've got to hand it to 'ol cheeseburgers moore for getting some folks into politics...and getting filthy rich along the way.

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Post by Johnny Neat » Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:17 am

Very true... hehehe Agent 44.
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Post by agent44 » Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:54 pm

I couldn't help it:
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Post by Johnny Neat » Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:27 am

Sweet drawing Jake.
But hey :?: :!:
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neil
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Post by neil » Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:30 pm

Kazu wrote:Thanks for that post, Dean. I like Michael Moore for entertainment, some good laughs, and exercise of free speech, but when it comes to politics, I'd rather listen to Christopher Hitchens any day....
Hitchens is always really interesting. (His book on Kissinger is something that I'm sure Michael Moore aspires to.) But since he turned pro-war and no WMD's or links between Iraq and Bin Laden were found, I think he's got some egg on his face. I think some of his attempts at deconstruction don't actually fly, and it's too bad to see him in this state. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Michael Moore apologist, and I appreciate that Hitchens brings a deeper level of scrutiny to the film than most conventional film critics would.

Hitchens tries to show that Moore is morally equivocal in that he won't take a position on war (e.g. he wouldn't declare himself a pacifist at Telluride). Well I thinkF/911 explains his position better than Hitchens does--war is only proper when "absolutely necessary," which Moore implies is the case of self defense. There's no moral problem with that really. It's the basis of the UN Charter! So it's actually a legally copacetic position as well.

Hitchens spots Tony Blair next to Bush on a supposed vacation shot in the movie and tries to refute Moore's claim that Bush took too many vacations. (How can it be a vacation if he's meeting a foreign head of state?) This doesn't really respond to Moore's statistics at all.

And Hitchens sees plenty of contradictions where Moore asserts "everything and nothing," e.g. that airport security is too tight and not tight enough. Moore is trying to explain that security measures are still ineffective because he wants to show that security is not the main goal, but rather a culture of fear. This isn't really asserting "everything and nothing" because Moore's opinion that matches and lighters on planes are dangerous does not contradict his opinion that breast milk is safe on planes. Hitchens is mischaracterizing the argument. The same goes for the not enough troops and too many troops "contradiction."

Anyway, Hitchens is brilliant, but maybe he's got some brain control device implanted by Rupert Murdoch. And I hope Moore gets better at what he's doing.

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Post by Johnny Neat » Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:14 pm

Good break down Neil.
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Post by Coheteboy » Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:43 pm

Alright I finally saw it! It was friday night and I decided to take the parents to the movies. (If I don't, they won't go on their own.....and when they go on their own, they end up in movies like "Around the World in 80 Days or Unfaithful)

I gave them a choice "Spider-Man 2" or "Farenheit 9/11". I know my dad is more political so he'd want the latter. My mom saw and loved Spider-Man so she definitely wouldn't mind seeing the second, but also wanted to see what Moore had to say about Bush. Oh and did you know that at Edwards, they have senior price tickets for ages 55 and up? I never thought of my parents as "senior citizens" but it gets a cheaper ticket so I guess that's cool.

ANYWAY... the movie.. before I get into details, I think i enjoyed "Bowling For Columbine" for entertainment, but this movie is more important to see. He does dwell a bit on the Bush family ties to the Saudis but it still is something to take into consideration. It is heartbreaking to see the mom of the dead soldier...

This movie makes you think... and that's always a good thing. Whether you agree or disagree. Thumbs up.

The silliest but sad scene is Bush sitting in the classroom while learning of the planes hitting the twin towers. It's just.. shocking to see him not do anything. I guess there really isn't anything he COULD do from where he was but still.. he didn't even try.

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Post by Dek » Tue Jul 06, 2004 10:16 pm

Saw it opening day :D

I actually liked this one slightly better than Bowling for Columbine - there's a few sites that are anti-BFC, and have some straight facts - it's true, some of Charlton Heston's speech was pieced together to make it more offensive. I just thought that BFC was a little too much "Michael Moore to the rescue!" He was trying to put himself up as a hero - with the Charlton Heston interview, and comforting the Columbine victims, and the mother of the daughter who was shot - it was all very adding to Michael Moore's image.

That said - Farenheit 9/11 was nothing like that. It was a very provocative movie, and a very good one at that. It had some extremely emotional segments - the scene with the baby's arm ripped open, I couldn't watch. This was a big thing for me - I pride myself in being able to stomach a lot of horrible movies, and a lot of guts and gore. Some people are horrified by Kill Bill - that was easy for me to take. Slasher movies, horror, anything. I can pretty well stomach it. But the slashed baby's arm, the dead 4-year old Iraqi girl - and the mother of the soldier crying - I couldn't take it - that really scared me, how I had to look away. No matter what side you're on - if you can watch that and not be moved, there might be something a little wrong with you.

The trailer was extremely well done - I saw it and immediately said "I want to see that!". Moore makes an amazing trailer.

The only thing I can say against Moore's arguments, was during that first part, where he was linking anyone and everony remotely tied to Bush, to anyone and everyone remotely tied to Osama Bin Laden. The only thing about that, was that 2 or 3 times, Moore's connection was that, say, Osama Bin Laden, and another man connected to Bush were both Saudis. That came up 2 or 3 times - and that's not a very strong connection. Bush and Moore are both Americans - they must be conspiring! You know?

Other then that - amazing movie. Truly awesome :D

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Post by Kazu » Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:26 pm

I just saw Fahrenheit 9/11 and I thought it was excellent. This is the strongest film Moore has made to date, but mostly due to the abundance of great material he had to work with. All of the bits with Bush are hilarious and make for great comic relief, but what's really important about this film, and what lies at the heart of it, is the footage of those that are most affected by the daily trials and tribulations of the Bush circle and their strange and hilarious soap opera antics.

I was very, very glad to see the addition of the material at the end, where we get to hear from the people who actually have to go to Iraq for a war only the most ignorant individual could consider to have just cause. It is important that people get to see who is actually sent to fight, before making their decisions that may affect the outcome of this continuing war.

In the end, from viewing the material presented in this film and through other media outlets, I am led to believe that everyone, at every station in life, and that includes Bush, Moore, Lila Lipscomb (the grieving mother of a dead soldier), the Iraqi civilians, etc. are spending their days protecting their family, their friends, and it is the consequences of them doing so that creates the very interesting events that we are watching unfold all over the world. A storyteller strives to capture thoughts and feelings that are universal, and presents them in a coherent manner so that an audience can relate. This film is filled with heroes and villains who are all affected by the same things, things we can all relate to, but react in very different ways to produce all too realistic outcomes, and this is what makes the film so incredibly watchable. The saddest and perhaps the most exhilarating aspect of this comic tragedy, however, is that it applies directly to the world we live in today. Amazing.

My opinion of Bush and of Moore are pretty much the same as when I walked into the theater, but the most important thing is that I did go home wanting to be a better human being, and this is why I love this film.

By the way, Michael Moore has started a blog.
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Post by deantrippe » Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:51 pm

Kazu wrote:I was very, very glad to see the addition of the material at the end, where we get to hear from the people who actually have to go to Iraq for a war only the most ignorant individual could consider to have just cause.
Isn't it a bit much to say that anyone who feels differently from you about the issue is "the most ignorant individual?" I've got friends who are/have been in Iraq, and most of them think taking out Sadaam was pretty good idea. There's lots of issues involved obviously, but that was/is my main reason for supporting the war, and tons of people feel the same way.

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Post by Kazu » Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:59 pm

I'd imagine there were plenty of better solutions on how to get rid of him. And I said "just cause", not whether or not it was a good idea.
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Post by Kazu » Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:05 am

By the way, Dean, I looked up Hitchens' rant on The Passion and I was kind of taken aback. For once, he actually sounded pretty nutty. I still remember him for his commentary during the 9/11 crisis, though. That's what made me a fan.
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Post by deantrippe » Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:20 am

Haha, Hitchens is a kooky dude. Just like anybody else, I like him for his unique point of view, not because I always agree with him.

I TOTALLY agree that there was likely a better way to go about getting Saddam out of power. I just wanted to point out that as a *cause* taking out Saddam was certainly merited. My feelings about the war are inadequately discussed in my "War" comic.

I was all for taking out Saddam but didn't think about the cost initially, now, while I'm super-happy to have Saddam out of power, I'm sad that we didn't find a better way to make it happen. We've been bombing Iraq since I was a kid (even during the Clinton admin, folks), and I'm glad to have the bastard out of power.

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